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Ghouls VS Humans: The Nordic Saga 
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Joined: Wed Dec 31, 1969 6:00 pm
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GVH:NS is no longer a beta and now officially released! What originally started out as a small addon wad for gvh has turned into a full blown-standalone pk3 in it's own rights. The Nordic Saga has completely revamped the entire gvh mod into a fresh new experience while still maintaining the classic style of play! New maps (maybe some old :P), new music, new weapons, the list goes on! It can be best described that what Brutal doom did to regular doom, we have done to gvh. With minor hud updates, new sprites and a near complete rewrite of the ACS, we've given a brand new look to the game. This doesn't me we won't stop updating the game! There are always new achievements to be made and cool new features to added!


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Image



(Promotional video Coming soon)




"Scandinavia, Norse mythology, and vikings - the barbaric war lords that ruled
the land with an iron fist. So ends then Chapter of the cold demise and dawns the era
of the Nordic Saga - the age of Wizards & Warriors, magic and swords, Demons and ghouls; A legend of blood & steel.
Thy saga unfurls like a glorious banner....Welcome to Nordland...."



-The Legend- ('cause every awesome wad needs character developement)

Barbarian

"Hailing from a small village just outside Lillelammer Norway, this brute is not someone
you want to mess with. He is hell on earth when it comes to Close Quarters Battle
and isn't afraid to get in your face with his hammer. His name is Torvald...."

Warlock

"No one really knows who the Warlock is, or where he originally came from. It
is speculated that he resides somewhere deep in the mountains of Galdhøpiggen,
but this is unconfirmed. He excells in the Arcane Arts of magic, making
him dangerous in a wide range of scenarios."

Defiler

"Risen from the deep swamplands in midworld, the Defiler is a God-ridden creature that
is instills fear for destroying and killing everything in it's path. It feeds off your anxiety.....and your corpse ...."

Icefiend

"Born inside "Crystal Mountain" the IceFiend is the ending chapter of the Cold
Demise and the beginning of the Nordic Saga; this silent stalker is the grim reaper of
the north lands and if you listen hard enough, you might hear it before it's too late..."


--Things you should know--

Special abilities- Some classes have now been given special abilities. To activate them, you need to have a key binded to the "use item" command (mine is W) and another key binded to cycle through items as certain classes will have more than 1 special ability

Weapon reloading - Classes like the marine, Engineer & santa have weapons that contain infinite ammo (dual pistols, nail gun, and snow gun) and thus to prevent spamming we have integrated a weapon reload time to prevent camping in tight choke points where ghouls can't enter without getting hurt. Example: The marine now fires 12 rounds from each pistol before stopping to reload, you can however press your "use item" key and reload at any point in time should you feel you have low ammo.

Achievements - Achievements are always cool, that's why we added as many as we possibly could conceive. We now have almost 100 achievements added to the game! But we won't stop there, because we know that you the player, are always finding new exciting ways to get kills in gvh. We've even added generic achievements that you can attain regardless of the class. Are you a badass? Do you make everyone cry at the end of the game? You could get an achievement named after you! But you have to prove it first. Come find us at irc://irc.skulltag.net/gvh and pitch any ideas for achievements! You can view achievements by binding a key in your control options at the very bottom (I binded mine to KP2)


The Classes:

-Humans-

Marine - Equipped with dual magnum pistols, a 4 gauge double barreled shotgun, a minigun, and a belt of grenades, the marine is a well rounded class that is usable in any given scenario. Because of how powerful his weapons are, expect kickback for the shotgun and minigun. This class has no special abilities Yet....

Hunter - The hunter carries 4 types of bows each with its own unique power and upgrade. The first is a regular bow that shoots normal arrows; the fire rate is fast and you do not slow down when holding down the trigger. The second bow uses fire arrows which do moderately high damage with above average radius damage. The third bow uses ice arrows with a high spread factor. Very lethal at point blank. The final of the four is the lightning bow. Much like a railgun, this weapon proves to spell death for ghouls should a rail god be using this bow. Special abilities- The hunter poses a special upgrade that can be used on 1 bow of his/her choice per round each with their own rewarding attributes. The regular bow upgrade acts like a spread rune, shooting 3 regular arrows instead of one. The fire bow upgrade shoots a more powerful fire arrow with small explosion damage on impact. The Icebow upgrade shoots 1 ice arrow instead of shards, upon impact a ghoul will be frozen in place for a short duration of time. The lightning bow upgrade causes the hunter to shoot blinding lightning arrows depending on how close you are to the target.

Cyborg- The cyborg only has one weapon, the plasma rifle, but it is very powerful and a team of cyborgs can easily seize control of an area . Equipped with a jet-pack and cyborg vision, this class is ideal for crowd control. Special abilities- The cyborg can switch between it's jet-pack and pulse energy. When firing your plasma gun, you earn pulse energy, when at 100% you can activate your pulse energy which reflects all inbound attacks and makes you temporarily invulnerable while it is active; you can not move while pulse energy is activated. The cyborg also has "cyborg vision" which once activated stays on for the entire round, really great for spotting creepers. To activate cyborg vision, press you need to bind the key found in control options.

Ghostbuster - Here you have two main weapons, ghostbuster plasma gun, and ghost traps. The ghostbuster gun has a multitude of upgrades depending on which ghoul you kill; a reward for you efforts. The Sjas upgrade gives you echo shots, capable of bouncing off walls and ground, good for those ghouls hiding around the corner. The jitter upgrade gives you the Boneer Canon, in short: its another rail gun (very deadly). The creeper upgrade gives you soul plasma, which has a chance of homing on your target! The choke upgrade gives you the blood spreader, although it's a medium/ short range weapon, it still packs a punch. Next is the Frostbite upgrade, original raining shards of ice, it is now an explosive weapon, firing shards of ice in all directions (Lethal at point blank). Newly added upgrades for the ghostbuster are the Defiler and Icefiend upgrades! The Defiler upgrade shoots and acid ball similar to that of a steam cannon, this takes a lot of ammo but is worth its cost. The Icefiend upgrade lets you shoot 3 iceballs which explode into shards upon impact.

Engineer - This class is near identical to Santa, you have a nail gun with infinite ammo, a saw thrower which can both throw & lay down saws and the steam cannon. The steam cannon contains 5 steam-balls (presumably made of coal) that can be shot at a long distance or dropped at your feet in case of approaching creepers. (For future reference, the Engineer is due to get a make over to become more like the Engineer from TF2. It was a consensus that having 2 identical classes was not necessary and introducing a new style of play for this class was exciting)

Santa - Santa Has 3 weapons for dealing with ghouls, a snow gun that fires a steady stream of snow balls, and a burst fire mode. He also carries holly's which can be thrown like ninja stars or be set down as traps. Santa's main weapon is the star launcher, which can fire at long distances or fire a slow moving star which is good for crowd control. Santa has no special abilities.

Barbarian - The new addition to GVH. The Barbarian is a viking class designed for CQB (close quarters battle) originally intended to balance out the game. The Barbarian has two types of attacks: He wields the IronSword which is capable of firing 3 projectiles or 1 weaker projectile if you dont wish to waste ammo. His second attack holds Thor's Hammer! the main attack of the hammer will cause a short burst of lightning on the ground causing high damage to any ghouls inside the circle, his second attack is a melee attack, one hit will kill any ghoul. -Special abilities- The Barbarian has 1 special ability: Ragnarøkkr, activating this will cause the Barbarian to go berserk. For a brief period of time, you will be invincible, move at a much faster rate and have infinite ammo, but it comes at a cost! immediately after the berserk ends you will be reduced to 25 HP, so be sure to use this wisely.

Warlock - The new addition to GVH. This class has a vast range of attacks making him/her a suitable competitor for all scenarios. The first weapon ice your IceHands. This attack has two forms: The main fire causes your mage to fire a cross like figure of ice in one burst, the alt-fire attack fires a steady stream ice ice in one straight line, good for long hallways. The Warlock's second weapon is his main weapon, the fire staff, it has two attacks, the primary one shoots a fireball that has a small chance of homing in on it's target (you have to be aiming directly at the ghoul in order to fire a homing projectile). The fire staff's second attack takes 10 ammo instead of one and shoots a big magma ball with large radius damage/ Although slow it is very lethal. The final Weapon for the Warlock is his Lightning hands. You have two attacks to choose from. The primary fire will spawn lighting to rain down on your opponent, very useful for sieging and defending choke points. The second attack will use all of your ammo but give you the best light show to come. It takes 6 seconds to charge leaving you very vulnerable to being attacked by ghouls, but should you successfully fire the ball lightning it will explode on impact killing everything withing a 512 pixel radius (to put this in visual terms, go to map02 in gvh [megadeth deathwatch] and fire it; it is capable of taking out an entire room). The Warlock has no special abilities.




-Ghouls-


Sjas - Simple class, you have the ablility of flight and a scream attack that can 1 hit kill most humans depending on how close you are. You can reflect projectiles with your alt fire. This class has no special abilities

Jitterskull - The Jitterskull has a different feel to it. You move in lag speed while being able to floorclip across any terrain. pressing alt fire will make you move slowly, good for navigating tight corners. this class has only one attack which charges you forward; 1 hit kill. -Special abilities- The Jitterskull now has heal points. Every human you kill will earn you 1 heal point. 1 heal point gives the player 10 HP

Creeper - The creeper is the weakest class of all but still proves to be very challenging for humans. This is because of it's size and color, it blends right in with the textures. The creeper has two attacks: the first is a melee attack which steals the souls out of humans, 1 hit kill. Upon killing your victim you will recharge back to max health. The creepers second attack is it's stun balls. Upon hit the human will be unable to move for a brief second (the creepers stun balls only hurt certain classes such as the cyborg, while other classes will remain unharmed. This is was implemented to stop certain creeper weenies from delaying the game for mass spectator crowds waiting to play). -Special abilities- The creeper can alternate between it's stun balls and it's special health ball. The health ball uses all 3 ammo but rewards the player with 20hp upon direct hit. The Creeper can kill a Barbarian while he is in Berserk.

Choke - The brother of the Jitterskull. The choke class has two attacks. It's main attack nom's the player while healing the choke. The second attack fires a blood ball that instantly kills any player upon direct hit. -Special abilities- The choke can alternate between blood ball attack and vomit attack. When you chew on a player you earn vomit points. Very helpful in tight spaces due to the high damage output. The choke is the fastest class in the game.

Frostbite - This class is good anti-camp because of it's secondary attack. The Frostbite's secondary attack fires dispersed frost-breath which bounces off walls and floors which is very helpful for humans camping in small rooms with only 1 door. The Frostbite's main attack lunges the player forward preforming another nom attack, 2 hits will result in a kill. The Frostbite has no special abilities

Defiler - The new addition to GVH. The Defiler is MAXIMUM anti-camp with its secondary weapon. The Defiler's alt-fire spits out and orange plague ball that quickly explodes into a horde of clouds that not only blinds humans, but damages them over a period of time too! You only get 1 ammo and it takes a total of 50 seconds to recharge so use it wisely. The Defiler's main attack fires an acid ball that continues to hurt humans even after it has hit them. The acid damage can eat away at a Barbarians HP even while he is in berserk! The Defiler has no special abilities.

Icefiend The new addition to GVH. The Icefiend is a wonderful class for long range assassin jobs and big maps where other melee ghouls struggle to get close to humans. It's main attack fires ice-spikes that can travel to the other side of the map. However the ice-spikes can not travel through objects, so should you find a marine camping on top of a tree object or flaming barrel, you will have to use your secondary attack which is a melee attack; 2 hits will kill any human.
-Special abilities- The Icefiend can cloak itself for a total duration of 30 seconds (stand still to recharge), this is very helpful if you want to sneak behind enemy lines without the humans knowing.


-Achievements-
Achievements are always cool, that's why we now have almost 100 achievements added to the game! But we won't stop there, because we know that you the player, are always finding new exciting ways to get kills in gvh. We've even added generic achievements that you can attain regardless of the class. Are you a badass? Do you make everyone cry at the end of the game? You could get an achievement named after you! But you have to prove it first. Come find us at irc://irc.skulltag.net/gvh and pitch any ideas for achievements! You can view achievements by binding a key in your control options


How to setup:

Gametype: TeamLMS
DMFLAGS: 2622592
DMFLAGS2: 0
DMFLAGS3: 1
COMPATFLAGS: 0
COMPATFLAGS2: 6


Screen-Shots:
preview


Wed Nov 23, 2011 1:59 pm
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Posts: 573
Played it for about an hour or two, came to the conclusion that this is full of annoying screen rape and unbalance.

Hey, maybe I'll play it again when the screen rape gimmick and the unbalance is gone, for now its out of my hard drive.


Wed Nov 23, 2011 3:56 pm
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Posts: 79
Catastrophe wrote:
Played it for about an hour or two, came to the conclusion that this is full of annoying screen rape and unbalance.

Hey, maybe I'll play it again when the screen rape gimmick and the unbalance is gone, for now its out of my hard drive.


Funny cause old GVH had screen rape as well but you didnt complain.

If you actually played it for longer you'd realize its completely balanced. We seldom ever see you play so I know you have any concept of balance within the game. It was pretty easy to tell with how clueless you are against most classes. You should really have given it more time before making such a rash decision. Everyone else has said how balanced it is, so I figure you're just another one of the people on the end of the bellcurve that bash the wad because they can't kill everything ASAP. It's okay broski.
Don't think I want you there though, trollish tendencies aren't welcome.


Wed Nov 23, 2011 4:17 pm
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Catastrophe, your post was ambiguous to what could be improved. You need to be more specific on what is unbalanced and how we can fix it. Until you can establish a coherent explanation of why you dislike the game, I have to disregard your post as absolute rubbish. Also watermelon has a point, that's the first time I've ever seen you play gvh, so I'm guessing you haven't played the original gvh on map11 with 5 jitters. Ghouls would always win on small maps, and humans would always win on big maps (like strike-beam). That doesn't happen in this version.


Wed Nov 23, 2011 4:40 pm
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Uh yeah, that was a direct result of the differing team paradigms. So if you got rid of that then you must also have done away with the paradigms (EDIT: well what do you know; I was right. You even went as far as to make the old classes that nearly violated them step over the line completely).

TBH I haven't tried it out, but my first impression is that you bothered to replace the good marine sprites with angled weapons that aren't even aligned properly. Not that that's horribly bad, but sheesh, if it ain't broke....

Lack of cl_identifytarget is annoying for non-gameplay reasons.


Wed Nov 23, 2011 5:49 pm
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That super meteor thing for the warlock, does it REALLY have to cover the screen of EVERY player near it?
The worms smoke bomb, not only does it blind you but it stays there for a long ass time.

Hell, all the maps are way too big, resulting in one round lasting 4 mins in a 5 winlimit game.

Warlocks fireball thing 1 hits creepers and does 80 damage, that's way too excessive.


Wed Nov 23, 2011 6:43 pm
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Why was the marine changed? It's old class was perfect tbh. [I mean its shotgun wasn't exactly weak thing, but overall it was one of my favorite classes.]


Wed Nov 23, 2011 6:48 pm
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Qent wrote:
Uh yeah, that was a direct result of the differing team paradigms. So if you got rid of that then you must also have done away with the paradigms (EDIT: well what do you know; I was right. You even went as far as to make the old classes that nearly violated them step over the line completely).

Whatever it did it ended up working out just fine as everything is balanced. Thats the way the game should be.

Quote:
TBH I haven't tried it out, but my first impression is that you bothered to replace the good marine sprites with angled weapons that aren't even aligned properly. Not that that's horribly bad, but sheesh, if it ain't broke....

Find us better sprites. If you come to the devs with a logical update we apply it almost instantaneously. GVH:NS is the fastest updated mod in doom currently.

Quote:
Lack of cl_identifytarget is annoying for non-gameplay reasons.

Can't help anyone there or it'd make the icefiends secondary useless. No one has ever complained about it for the past half year or so except you though. Thus, what are those non gameplay reasons? I'm interested



Catastrophe wrote:
That super meteor thing for the warlock, does it REALLY have to cover the screen of EVERY player near it?

The effect was reduced, but it still isn't that bad and is over fast. The lightning effect can be applied where its given as a radius.
I was thinking of doing a gaussian distribution for players, but we'll see.

Quote:
The worms smoke bomb, not only does it blind you but it stays there for a long ass time.

It's been like that for ages even since the games inception. It's blind is very minimal, way nicer than v.Beta6 was. The clouds cause dispersion so humans can't do obscene camping.
The defiler has allowed us to bring back the old school maps that humans would just camp and win 24/7 (like ghoulenstein), and now it's balanced to the point where we get 5-4's frequently.
Plus if you really want to, you can go cyborg and turn on the cyborg vision which nullifies what you just said. Again, play it more to understand the dynamics.

Quote:
Hell, all the maps are way too big, resulting in one round lasting 4 mins in a 5 winlimit game.

That's incorrect. The first quarter of the map pack involves very tiny maps. GVH02 and GVH03 are among the smallest you can get. Some of the new maps from our mappers have also made small maps.

Quote:
Warlocks fireball thing 1 hits creepers and does 80 damage, that's way too excessive.

Creeper is weak in the first place (again, didn't you play GVH at all for the past 3+ years?). Warlock does not always 1 hit it. I've been hit by it and not died, therefore that's incorrect. Marine grenade since CutmanMike introduced it for marines does 128 A_Explode damage, so this is irrelevant if we want to discuss the game in general since you should be even more against this weapon than anything. Warlock fires at most 5 mega-fireballs which do less damage, have a longer cooldown and move much much slower. Marine grenades on the other hand are 10 per marine, do 50% more damage than the warlock fireball, can be tossed really far really fast and can bounce.
There are other examples. Regardless, if they were 'op' as some attach to stuff as a misnomer, then ghouls or humans would just win 5-0 all the time-- but the exact opposite happens.
Unless Ivan is playing, then he usually kicks everyone ass because we've balanced it to the point where there's no OP anymore except his skill.

EDIT: BTW I really hope that wasn't your only reasoning for your post. If so... I need to get mah 'can't tell if troll or not' picture.



$-$lyfox-$ wrote:
Why was the marine changed? It's old class was perfect tbh. [I mean its shotgun wasn't exactly weak thing, but overall it was one of my favorite classes.]

Did you even play today? I didn't see you in there.
The marine wasn't changed. It only got a graphics overhaul. Once again, play the game.
EDIT: I lied, the pistols now have a reload system to prevent ridiculous spamming.


Last edited by Watermelon on Wed Nov 23, 2011 7:39 pm, edited 4 times in total.



Wed Nov 23, 2011 7:17 pm
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Qent wrote:
Uh yeah, that was a direct result of the differing team paradigms. So if you got rid of that then you must also have done away with the paradigms (EDIT: well what do you know; I was right. You even went as far as to make the old classes that nearly violated them step over the line completely).


Due to the modification of the original classes and introduction of the new classes, it really comes to down player experience now rather than team numbers; 5 jitters for example can no longer take on 10 humans. That was the major problem too, on tight maps 3 ghouls could effortlessly take on 7+ humans and that doesn't happen now (at least I have yet to witness that).

Qent wrote:
Lack of cl_identifytarget is annoying for non-gameplay reasons.


That was turned off specifically because people could see the Icefiend while he was cloaked.


Qent wrote:
TBH I haven't tried it out, but my first impression is that you bothered to replace the good marine sprites with angled weapons that aren't even aligned properly. Not that that's horribly bad, but sheesh, if it ain't broke....


$-$lyfox-$ wrote:
Why was the marine changed? It's old class was perfect tbh. [I mean its shotgun wasn't exactly weak thing, but overall it was one of my favorite classes.]


Some players were complaining that the sprites felt stale, so we decided to redesign the marine sprites to try and give a fresh look. If you can petition enough people that the consensus doesn't like it, we will gladly change it back =]




Catastrophe wrote:
That super meteor thing for the warlock, does it REALLY have to cover the screen of EVERY player near it?
The worms smoke bomb, not only does it blind you but it stays there for a long ass time.

Hell, all the maps are way too big, resulting in one round lasting 4 mins in a 5 winlimit game.

Warlocks fireball thing 1 hits creepers and does 80 damage, that's way too excessive.


The Nova ball flash WILL be fixed as even we found it to be a tad over bearing. The Defiler's smoke bomb was implemented as an anti-camp to stop humans from hiding in small rooms with only one way of access that even the Frostbite struggled to prevent.

The Warlock has two types of fire balls, the one I assume you're referring to would be the magma ball which can one hit a creeper. But by that same logic, grenades are also too excessive.


Wed Nov 23, 2011 7:21 pm
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Watermelon wrote:
Whatever it did it ended up working out just fine as everything is balanced. Thats the way the game should be.
Here's what made GvH great: Humans all had weak long-range weapons, and Ghouls all had powerful melee attacks. Can that be balanced? Start by assuming that "balanced teams" means "equal numbers." It should be obvious that on a huge empty map, Ghouls don't stand a chance. But as the map crowds up, the advantage shifts to Ghouls. Therefore, "balanced teams" does not mean "equal numbers" on each team.

So, since having that distinctive characteristic for the Ghoul and Human teams must lead to unequal numbers of Humans and Ghouls, you just toss out the whole concept of ranged vs. melee. Balanced? By construction. Fun? Sure. GvH? Definitely not.

Quote:
Find us better sprites.
The better sprites that I was referring to were the ones that had been in GvH since the beginning.

Watermelon wrote:
Quote:
Lack of cl_identifytarget is annoying for non-gameplay reasons.

Can't help anyone there or it'd make the icefiends secondary useless. No one has ever complained about it for the past half year or so except you though. Thus, what are those non gameplay reasons? I'm interested
I understand there are technical limitations. I just like to see who I'm shooting at or with. Playing with a bunch of nameless sprites gets dehumanizing after a while. (I try to identify all players in WDI for the same reason.) It also helps prioritize targets, which is a gameplay reason though.


Wed Nov 23, 2011 8:21 pm
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Watermelon wrote:
$-$lyfox-$ wrote:
Why was the marine changed? It's old class was perfect tbh. [I mean its shotgun wasn't exactly weak thing, but overall it was one of my favorite classes.]

Did you even play today? I didn't see you in there.
The marine wasn't changed. It only got a graphics overhaul. Once again, play the game.
EDIT: I lied, the pistols now have a reload system to prevent ridiculous spamming.

Quote:
4 gauge double barreled shotgun

??????????
Quote:
Some players were complaining that the sprites felt stale, so we decided to redesign the marine sprites to try and give a fresh look. If you can petition enough people that the consensus doesn't like it, we will gladly change it back =]

Also thanks for the heads up tor.
Edit: Dear lord What did you add for it to be 150 mb??!?!


Last edited by $-$lyfox-$ on Wed Nov 23, 2011 8:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.



Wed Nov 23, 2011 8:31 pm
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grenades are bouncy, uncontrolled easily, dodgable, that damn magma ball is a projectile that can be easily controlled to kill a creeper.

Allright, you forget the possibility of more than one worm, what if all of them smoke bomb a key area? Then it'll CAUSE humans to camp.


Wed Nov 23, 2011 8:34 pm
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$-$lyfox-$ wrote:
Edit: Dear lord What did you add for it to be 150 mb??!?!

Mostly sounds, music and sprites. I do plan on sitting down one day and converting all the original sounds/ music to OGG and cleaning up any unused crap. The Pk3 should be more refined when the engineer rewrite comes out.

Catastrophe wrote:
grenades are bouncy, uncontrolled easily, dodgable, that damn magma ball is a projectile that can be easily controlled to kill a creeper.

Allright, you forget the possibility of more than one worm, what if all of them smoke bomb a key area? Then it'll CAUSE humans to camp.

Any player who knows how to manipulate the game engine can make the grenade explode on impact. Simply throwing the grenade at the ceiling will cause it to explode much faster than bouncing it on the floor. I've used that trick many times to get out of sticky situations.

Funny enough no one has ever attempted a Defiler spam until one player (sex kitten I believe it was) suggested we all go Defiler. A simple fix in the decorate has now made it so your health decreases roughly 1 hp every 3 seconds while in the clouds.

The original intention for the Defiler was to be a support class that was capable of anti-camp. In terms of humans camping, it is up to the players to maintain proper team communication to prevent humans from having a safe camping location. Don't be afraid to get aggressive with the Defiler, you'd be surprised how easy it is to kill alongside the Icefiend. They're support classes, they don't do well in close quarters battle.



Edit:
$-$lyfox-$ wrote:
Quote:
4 gauge double barreled shotgun

??????????


Hopefully this will answer your question :)

In essence, the smaller the gauge, the bigger the shell/ more pellets.


Wed Nov 23, 2011 9:37 pm
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Qent wrote:
Watermelon wrote:
Whatever it did it ended up working out just fine as everything is balanced. Thats the way the game should be.
Here's what made GvH great: Humans all had weak long-range weapons, and Ghouls all had powerful melee attacks. Can that be balanced? Start by assuming that "balanced teams" means "equal numbers." It should be obvious that on a huge empty map, Ghouls don't stand a chance. But as the map crowds up, the advantage shifts to Ghouls. Therefore, "balanced teams" does not mean "equal numbers" on each team. So, since having that distinctive characteristic for the Ghoul and Human teams must lead to unequal numbers of Humans and Ghouls, you just toss out the whole concept of ranged vs. melee. Balanced? By construction. Fun? Sure. GvH? Definitely not.


I have no idea where you're trying to go with this point. Can you elucidate?
I'll try to go piece by piece so you can further clarify what you mean:
Quote:
Here's what made GvH great: Humans all had weak long-range weapons, and Ghouls all had powerful melee attacks. Can that be balanced?

You left out what you think of Humans in close range. Ghouls also have a semi long range spammer (which is frostbite) and that has its own OP drawbacks from what it was. Since you left out what you think of humans at close range I can't assume it's rhetorical without all the facts on the table before one makes an answer (despite it being rhetorical, but I'm going ahead with this for sake of discussion).
It could also be up for debate on what is defined as weak long range weapons, because even before GVH:NS took over the GVH scene-- there were still really powerful weapons that were devastating long range (engineer/santa spray launcher, hunter long range missile, bone cannon...etc).

Quote:
Start by assuming that "balanced teams" means "equal numbers." It should be obvious that on a huge empty map, Ghouls don't stand a chance. But as the map crowds up, the advantage shifts to Ghouls.

Can this be applied to any map though? The problem is map size is not constant at all, they rotate a lot. This means GVH was originally shortsighted in design.
There are some camp spots in maps though that even with ghouls piling up they still don't stand a chance due to the ability of humans to 'camp hard'.


Quote:
Therefore, "balanced teams" does not mean "equal numbers" on each team.

I don't have any problems with this here, I think that equal numbers != balanced teams as well-- the problem with GVH was there came a runaway point where adding more humans didn't do anything.
While I agree with you here-- and in a perfect world we wouldn't have any problems -- MANY people bitch when teams arent equal and stamp their feet really loudly. There have been times I've seen someone who keeps stacking a team to win been vote kicked. Almost all people I've come across want the teams to be 1 to 1; even if in the old version it conveyed some insane rigged status to another team.

Quote:
So, since having that distinctive characteristic for the Ghoul and Human teams must lead to unequal numbers of Humans and Ghouls, you just toss out the whole concept of ranged vs. melee. Balanced? By construction. Fun? Sure. GvH? Definitely not.

In relation to the stuff from the above -- would it be wrong to say that what you want to see in GvH is close range intense battle? Or is GvH supposed to be the only game that follows this rule? In the end the classes have not differentiated that much from what they are. Sjas/Jitter/Creeper/Choke pretty much all do the same thing with some addons to give them a unique edge in certain scenarios. None of the updates applied change the game drastically in any way other than stopping
1) Massive sjas spam which rapes everything
2) Extreme human camp
GVH was dying before GVH:NS came along. That I think was what got our team of people together to make it was due to the poor work done by Carthief. The game never got above 7 people at one time, and when GVH:NS came out on our first day we hit above 20 people for almost a week in a row.
Based on the statistics of the server, options 1 and 2 above which got on most people's nerves were reduced. Thus one could conclude based on what you said that the GvH you want has an (unfortunate) flawed design that doesn't work to well in practice... despite something in theory I have no problems playing nor making.



Quote:
Quote:
Find us better sprites.

The better sprites that I was referring to were the ones that had been in GvH since the beginning.

Unfortunately I can't tailor to just your opinion (especially with most people saying the old sprites were stale). If you become a regular player instead of a blue mooner, I'd be glad to allow you to switch to the old weapon sprites with some decorate if it really bothers you that much.


Quote:
Watermelon wrote:
Quote:
Lack of cl_identifytarget is annoying for non-gameplay reasons.

Can't help anyone there or it'd make the icefiends secondary useless. No one has ever complained about it for the past half year or so except you though. Thus, what are those non gameplay reasons? I'm interested
I understand there are technical limitations. I just like to see who I'm shooting at or with. Playing with a bunch of nameless sprites gets dehumanizing after a while. (I try to identify all players in WDI for the same reason.) It also helps prioritize targets, which is a gameplay reason though.

I can identify 99% of people with their colors though. The 1% comes from random people I've never seen or color changers. Certain people usually have the same gaming patterns so even if they change their colors usually I can peg them down for who they are.
Plus if you kill them or die to them you get to see their name anyways. In addition, GvH and GvH:NS are frenzy based so I'd have a tough time even looking at that data.

I wish I could get the best of both worlds. I honestly do, this sadly I don't think I can do anything about. If Torr Samaho maybe adds an option to turn it off if you have item XYZ in your inventory, then I could enable it and make the cloaked icefiend not show up. Maybe an idea for the tracker?




$-$lyfox-$ wrote:
Watermelon wrote:
$-$lyfox-$ wrote:
Why was the marine changed? It's old class was perfect tbh. [I mean its shotgun wasn't exactly weak thing, but overall it was one of my favorite classes.]

Did you even play today? I didn't see you in there.
The marine wasn't changed. It only got a graphics overhaul. Once again, play the game.
EDIT: I lied, the pistols now have a reload system to prevent ridiculous spamming.

Quote:
4 gauge double barreled shotgun

??????????

I'll let Tor answer this ;)

Quote:
Quote:
Some players were complaining that the sprites felt stale, so we decided to redesign the marine sprites to try and give a fresh look. If you can petition enough people that the consensus doesn't like it, we will gladly change it back =]

Also thanks for the heads up tor.
Edit: Dear lord What did you add for it to be 150 mb??!?!
[/quote]
SO much stuff ;)
It's shocked some players at how much we've added. You'll need to play it a lot to see all the different features added. There's so many unique things, maps, music, sounds, ideas... I could go on forever; that playing it 1-2 hours couldn't really cover it.



Catastrophe wrote:
grenades are bouncy, uncontrolled easily, dodgable, that damn magma ball is a projectile that can be easily controlled to kill a creeper.

Those parameters you applied are not valid because they are accounted for. Just like you account for aim, speed, size, clipping...etc of the mage ball. You probably were on the wrong end of Kevin who is a warlock master. Likewise, Ivan can take grenades and land them perfectly since it's not his first time using them.
If you played the wad more often, you'd know how to lob a grenade just right. It's infinitely more dangerous than the magma balls.

Quote:
Allright, you forget the possibility of more than one worm, what if all of them smoke bomb a key area? Then it'll CAUSE humans to camp.

What if what if what if...
Defiler was one of the most important classes added to GVH (next to the barbarian) since it stopped camping. GVH maps don't focus on one single key area because that would just be shitty map design. It's not king of the hill mode or anything. All maps had advantageous points, the clouds do minimal damage and the poison on the screen is barely noticeable anymore.
The invention of the defiler actually allowed us to bring back GVH 07 - 09 (the classic maps) that everyone loved but couldn't play because humans would just camp in one specific area that always ensured victory. Even in ghoulenstein, people would camp outside and win 24/7. I doubt you played GVH long ago, as it falls under the point I was making above with Qent's post. Defiler allows us to specifically stop that behavior, and it works well.
Plus this assumes no cyborgs, which can just turn on their vision and they're immune to the clouds. Then the defiler is in some trouble. This ends up being perfect though because cyborg is generally crap at camping, thus it's win win.
I can't even think of a GVH map that has such a critical point.

In terms of small maps like GVH02 where 5 or so defilers could literally fill the map... we've had that happen and they end up just dying. They can disperse humans but they cannot act as full on attack units such as the jitterskull or sjas. As being support units, they can only pave the way for other ghouls to do their thing (though their acid balls can still be of use, it'd be incorrect to think of it as useless after it's deployed the mist ball).

The mist also goes away after a short period of time, and if the defiler who spawned them dies it leaves with it as well.



All of the arguments you're giving here could be easily answered if you played it more; though you seem to be dead set the ever so shortsighted book-by-its-cover judgement of the wad without giving it a chance.
When you're up against the creeper, it's life or death in a second. You either connect, or you die -- since it'll insta kill you. Dodging the mageball is not hard at all. Even with Kevin, I can predict when hes going to shoot and easily dodge it then kill him. Eventually it becomes and epic game of cat and mouse because he knows I will dodge--etc; that's what makes the game fun.


Wed Nov 23, 2011 9:58 pm
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Joined: Wed Dec 31, 1969 6:00 pm
Posts: 1918
Watermelon wrote:
I have no idea where you're trying to go with this point. Can you elucidate?
I'll try to go piece by piece so you can further clarify what you mean:
Quote:
Here's what made GvH great: Humans all had weak long-range weapons, and Ghouls all had powerful melee attacks. Can that be balanced?

You left out what you think of Humans in close range. Ghouls also have a semi long range spammer (which is frostbite) and that has its own OP drawbacks from what it was. Since you left out what you think of humans at close range I can't assume it's rhetorical without all the facts on the table before one makes an answer (despite it being rhetorical, but I'm going ahead with this for sake of discussion).
I thought it should have been clear that Humans are weak in melee and Ghouls are weak(er) at range.

Watermelon wrote:
It could also be up for debate on what is defined as weak long range weapons, because even before GVH:NS took over the GVH scene-- there were still really powerful weapons that were devastating long range (engineer/santa spray launcher, hunter long range missile, bone cannon...etc).
By "powerful" I mean instant death, which none of those are. They could still be OP, but that per se wouldn't break the overall scheme.

The first three classes were good with the whole OHKO-if-I-touch-you deal, even if the Creeper could be a bit tricky due to having such a precise attack. Enter Choke. It was still primarily melee, although it started to blur the distinction a little because it was the bloodball that was actually OHKO, and not the bite. Finally, Frostbite came along and screwed everything up. Not only did it have a weak (well still reasonably powerful compared to the Choke, but inaccurate) bite, but the ranged attack was used as much or more than the melee. I didn't mind too much though, since the ice breath was relatively short-ranged, and on the whole they were so weak (how did you even have "OP" and "Frostbite" in the same sentence? O.o).

On to the Humans. Instead of instant kills, they have range. If they let a Ghoul within touching distance, they ought to be dead, although often the Ghoul will screw up or was weakened and the Human survives. The Cyborg was notable as being the most "ghoulish" of the Humans. While not OHKO, you could measure its DPS in Jitterskulls per second. Since the plasma moved so slow, it could only hit something reliably at short to medium range. Finally, it could fly -- an ability otherwise reserved for Sjas. But in a direct punching match even with a Choke or Frostbite, the Cyborg was in trouble. So there's a sort of rough dividing line between what was considered Human versus Ghoul (with expansion items like blood spray and steam altfire pushing it a little).

Watermelon wrote:
Quote:
Start by assuming that "balanced teams" means "equal numbers." It should be obvious that on a huge empty map, Ghouls don't stand a chance. But as the map crowds up, the advantage shifts to Ghouls.

Can this be applied to any map though? The problem is map size is not constant at all, they rotate a lot. This means GVH was originally shortsighted in design.
There are some camp spots in maps though that even with ghouls piling up they still don't stand a chance due to the ability of humans to 'camp hard'.
It's been a while, so I shouldn't really comment on this. I can tell you though that for a large number of players (i.e. the map is filled up), there exist Human:Ghoul ratios that lead to both a Human and a Ghoul victory.

Watermelon wrote:
I think that equal numbers != balanced teams as well-- the problem with GVH was there came a runaway point where adding more humans didn't do anything.
While I agree with you here-- and in a perfect world we wouldn't have any problems -- MANY people bitch when teams arent equal and stamp their feet really loudly. There have been times I've seen someone who keeps stacking a team to win been vote kicked. Almost all people I've come across want the teams to be 1 to 1; even if in the old version it conveyed some insane rigged status to another team.
And I agree with you as well. When I was a regular player, I worked very hard to educate people about the asymmetric team balance, with mixed results.

Watermelon wrote:
In relation to the stuff from the above -- would it be wrong to say that what you want to see in GvH is close range intense battle? Or is GvH supposed to be the only game that follows this rule?
I'm not sure what you mean here. Humans are supposed to run away and shoot Ghouls to death. Ghouls are supposed to close distance and kill. I'm sure that range versus power is a common theme in many games.

Watermelon wrote:
In the end the classes have not differentiated that much from what they are. Sjas/Jitter/Creeper/Choke pretty much all do the same thing with some addons to give them a unique edge in certain scenarios. None of the updates applied change the game drastically in any way other than stopping
1) Massive sjas spam which rapes everything
2) Extreme human camp
I'm unfamiliar with the changes to the original classes, but my very first comment was in response to a few specific observations:
  • The Cyborg got a melee special (as noted above he's already the Ghouliest)
  • Frostbite's secondary range was increased (he was already the most Human)
  • The two new Ghouls are ranged-only

Watermelon wrote:
GVH was dying before GVH:NS came along. That I think was what got our team of people together to make it was due to the poor work done by Carthief. The game never got above 7 people at one time, and when GVH:NS came out on our first day we hit above 20 people for almost a week in a row.
Based on the statistics of the server, options 1 and 2 above which got on most people's nerves were reduced. Thus one could conclude based on what you said that the GvH you want has an (unfortunate) flawed design that doesn't work to well in practice... despite something in theory I have no problems playing nor making.
I apologize -- I would have gotten back into it before, but I got somewhat put off because the kids playing it (not the current crowd I'm sure) really were as immature as their reputation in these parts suggested. But I do think you've done some great work here. I also understand if you think the original concept of GvH was fundamentally flawed. It's just that I feel like you've made a great mod without even understanding what you were destroying.

Watermelon wrote:
If you become a regular player instead of a blue mooner, I'd be glad to allow you to switch to the old weapon sprites with some decorate if it really bothers you that much.
No biggie. But seriously... they're like... not pointed at the crosshair.

Watermelon wrote:
Quote:
Lack of cl_identifytarget is annoying for non-gameplay reasons.
I wish I could get the best of both worlds. I honestly do, this sadly I don't think I can do anything about. If Torr Samaho maybe adds an option to turn it off if you have item XYZ in your inventory, then I could enable it and make the cloaked icefiend not show up. Maybe an idea for the tracker?
Also no biggie, but that feature would be useful for several mods I'm sure.


Last edited by Qent on Thu Nov 24, 2011 10:27 am, edited 1 time in total.



Thu Nov 24, 2011 12:53 am
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Joined: Wed Dec 31, 1969 6:00 pm
Posts: 2
I'm glad I stopped myself from reading this fully where I did, otherwise I would had died laughing, now that I have my 'Trollish Tendencies' sated the tone of this post will be completely serious.

I'm appalled by this, really I just can't believe it if not for the content you've generated but for the way you've responded so harshly and defensively to the people on this forum expressing their opinion, I mean holy crap guys some people might not like your wad, and I'll tell you something else first impressions mean everything.

I'm not going to comment much on the balance of NS, someone has already pointed out that the Ranged vs Melee strengths are lost, I understand your intentions were to prevent camping but after playing through your wad I can tell you've only made it worse and spammier, that is the absolute truth.

Really though I think what the biggest outrage here is how you viciously you try to defend your egos from being hurt.

Tor-Bjorn: Although you're trying to be good about taking suggestions you're really going about it all wrong, you've already turned down a aethestic choice in favour of your own, that's selfish and really the way you come off It's like you made this wad just for yourself.

But you did, didn't you? You got your group of super friends, your own little niche, I'm proud of you really, you found your place in the world but don't try and bog everyone down if they don't like your game you made for fairly good reasons that probably should had been taken care of with proper planning before you released this.

I mean 150 megabytes for 5 wads that aren't even in a pk3 together but are still mostly mandatory, is just stupid not even AoW is that big.

Watermelon; You are the most defensive child I've seen on the internet in a long time, and you need to quit the pseudo-intellectual talk and stop attacking people so viciously, sure they didn't play their wad as much as you liked but you have to think about this

If YOU are making a wad for everyone, and not just yourself you would had considered their feelings on the subject, as a game designer your fan base should come first especially if you aren't making any money on this (And seriously please don't try) plain and simple you've already screwed your public appearance with your outrageous reactions towards the people in this thread.

On a note of personal irony there, Its funny to think you guys think I'm mean.

On the Wad:

I'm not going to get into specifics on the classes themselves I'm just going to generalize, about what you need to do in order to win people over with this.

1. completely remake your custom classes to fit the associated paradigms
2. Come up with a better way to lessen camping (its going to happen some people just arent that good and need to rely on it at first)
3. Reduce the size of the wad (150mbs, I still can't believe this...)
4.Make more maps that are what you want them to be, and don't make them untextured 3x3 rooms because that's crap
5. More decapitation sprites
6. Be nicer to your fans
7. LOTS OF UPDATES DOES NOT = BETTER, Take your time and make something quality instead of making garbage you're just going to have to clean up in a later patch...or are you trying to be clever that way and look good?

That's all really, better luck next time.


Thu Nov 24, 2011 3:14 am
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Joined: Wed Dec 31, 1969 6:00 pm
Posts: 147
Play the mod first then talk, kthxbai. Prove you played this ! (for longer than 1 minute)


Thu Nov 24, 2011 10:38 am
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Joined: Wed Dec 31, 1969 6:00 pm
Posts: 608
Avernus wrote:
Play the mod first then talk, kthxbai. Prove you played this ! (for longer than 1 minute)


And why the hell are you butting in? He's just giving them feedback.


Thu Nov 24, 2011 10:45 am
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Joined: Wed Dec 31, 1969 6:00 pm
Posts: 99
Location: I den slottet av drømmen
It's a real shame you put all that effort into that post Savant, because never once have I seen you in our server, and considering me and watermelon are in there on a daily basis, that's saying something. It is for that reason alone your argument is rendered invalid due to lack of game play experience.

To put a end to your constant argument that we hate our so called fan base is also inaccurate and a hyperbole, Qent and Catastrophe are the only two people that have complained about this wad so far. Both of which are highly inactive in the gvh community (once again, never see these two play in our servers frequent enough and 2 hours of play is hardly enough to formulate a valid critical review)


Savant wrote:
I'm appalled by this, really I just can't believe it if not for the content you've generated but for the way you've responded so harshly and defensively to the people on this forum expressing their opinion, I mean holy crap guys some people might not like your wad, and I'll tell you something else first impressions mean everything.


does that not strike you as hypocritical in the slightest? This is coming from the same person who shuts down ANY remarks about the zdoomwars wad and goes out of their way to nerf a class when they lose.... I'm all for opinions, but they need to be backed up by solid facts if they want to stand valid. You've never played GVH EVER, you have no sense of balance, and above all else, you're renowned in the skulltag community as a first class shit disturber.

But like I said, we aim to please the masses, and we know we can't meet everyone's demands. But so far the consensus is awe stricken with our update and very excited about it. I wish we could be politically correct and make everyone happy, but that's how business works: You attend to the biggest crowds demands. If you decide to actually start playing gvh, and I see you more frequently in the servers, I'll be more inclined to respond to your critical reception, but for now, your opinion stands as irrelevant due to lack of experience from a game you've never played.


Last edited by Tor-Bjorn on Thu Nov 24, 2011 10:50 am, edited 1 time in total.



Thu Nov 24, 2011 10:47 am
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Joined: Wed Dec 31, 1969 6:00 pm
Posts: 991
Synert wrote:
Avernus wrote:
Play the mod first then talk, kthxbai. Prove you played this ! (for longer than 1 minute)


And why the hell are you butting in? He's just giving them feedback.

He's a part of their group.
EDIT: In case you didn't know, he is the "Ivan Dobrovski" guy.


Last edited by Konda on Thu Nov 24, 2011 11:25 am, edited 1 time in total.



Thu Nov 24, 2011 10:49 am
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